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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 18, 2004 2:12am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Many of the (ostensibly DVD-compatible) MPEG-2 files in the Prelinger Archives seem to be encoded in the resolution of 368x480. They play horizontally squeezed in Windows Media Player. When I try to author them with TMPGEnc DVD Author, I get the following message:

"The video resolution 368x480 cannot be used for a standard DVD. For a standard DVD you can only use the following resolutions:

352x240 352x480 704x480 720x480 pixels (NTSC format)"

Why would they be encoded in an incompatible ratio? And how do I fix this? I tried converting one MPEG-2 file, MY JAPAN, to 720x480 resolution (4:3 aspect ratio option is selected) using HT MPEG Encoder, and now it plays a bit vertically squished. What am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance for any and all help!

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 19, 2004 1:04pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> They play horizontally squeezed in Windows Media Player.

I have no problem to play those files with xine or
mplayer at the correct ratio:

VDec: vo config request - 368 x 480 (preferred csp: Planar YV12)
VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is 1.33:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.
VO: [x11] 368x480 => 640x480 Planar YV12

VDec: vo config request - 352 x 480 (preferred csp: Planar YV12)
VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is 1.33:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.
VO: [x11] 352x480 => 640x480 Planar YV12

mpeg files have a tag with the aspect ratio (here 1.33) so no matter its 368x480, 512x480 or else...

US TV (NTSC) have 640x480 resolution (1.33) and they play well the 720x480 DVD (1.5) without problem.

European TV have 720*576 resolution and play as well US DVD (720x480) than EU DVD (720x576) and so the preliguer at 368x480 with a cheap DVD player ($27) at the correct 1.33 ratio by resampling 368x480 to 720*576


Maybe you should try mplayer, there is a windows and a Mac port, or VLC.

http://www2.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/win32-beta/MPlayer-mingw32-1.0pre5.zip
http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net
http://www.mplayerhq.hu
http://xinehq.de
http://www.videolan.org

This post was modified by stef on 2004-07-19 20:04:12

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 19, 2004 1:16pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Thanks for the info; I'll definitely give Mplayer a try for viewing on my computer. However, even if Mplayer will play them correctly, the fact remains that mpeg files encoded in a resolution of 368x480 are not compatible with DVD playback, and must be converted, which, for a 16 minute clip, takes about an hour on my 1.5 Ghz processor. To convert a feature film would take at least 5 hours. That's my main concern.

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 20, 2004 4:31am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> I'll definitely give Mplayer a try for viewing on my computer.

MPlayer for Windows is still a beta, try VLC, it's works on all OS and is Made in France ;-)

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

But I dont know if its rezise at correct ratio.

> the fact remains that mpeg files encoded in a
> resolution of 368x480 are not compatible with
> DVD playback, and must be converted,

No its work fine on a DVD player, but you right, correct standard must be respected.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 20, 2004 1:43pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

"No its work fine on a DVD player, but you right, correct standard must be respected."

No, 368x480 >won't< work fine on a DVD player. It must be converted.

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 20, 2004 4:07pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> No, 368x480 >won't< work fine on a DVD player.
> It must be converted.

No its play well, or maybe I dont notice 368x480 from 352x480, its less than 5% x/y ratio.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 21, 2004 1:57am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

352x480 will work, but 368x480 >will not< work. At all. It must be converted.

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 21, 2004 4:53am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> 352x480 will work, but 368x480 >will not< work. At all. It must be converted.

No! It works fine. I try on 3 Players:
Kiss (play also Divx) and 2 simples DVD player, Daytek (34 euro, less than $28!) and an old Philips.

I have try with "A_is_for_atom_1953.mpeg" 368x480
Maybe is a specific video, tell me which one and I'll try.





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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 21, 2004 1:26pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

The problem for me is getting the 368x480 file to burn correctly to DVD-R. How do you do it without converting the file first? I'd be overjoyed if you could tell me. :) The programs I use to demux and remux (IFOEdit and TMPGEnc) tell me that 368x480 is not valid.

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 22, 2004 1:09am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> The problem for me is getting the 368x480
> file to burn correctly to DVD-R. How do
> you do it without converting the file first?

The "DVD burner", hardware and software, dont care
about file format and content; from his point of view it's just a stream of bits. Maybe you use one
the @!!## "all in one" software to burn DVD

For Windows try DeepBurner:
http://www.deepburner.com




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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 22, 2004 1:56am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Well, sure, I can burn the mpg files to DVD-R, but my DVD player won't play raw mpg files, and neither will most DVD players. The files must be in .vob format with the proper ifo files, like a regular DVD, or the disc won't play. And, the programs I use to change the raw mpg files into .vob files will not accept the resolution of 368x480. That's what I mean.

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Poster: stef Date: Jul 22, 2004 7:06am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

> The files must be in .vob format with the proper
> ifo files, like a regular DVD, or the disc won't
> play.

No, all DVD players (*) accept mpeg extension and accept exotic resolution! I swear!

(*) All my players and all the player of my friends, with preliger files.


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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 22, 2004 7:52pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

"No, all DVD players (*) accept mpeg extension and accept exotic resolution! I swear!"

No, not all DVD players play raw mpeg files. My main DVD player will not play them, and it's a relatively new one, which came out at the beginning of this year. But, luckily, I just discovered that I have another player that will play them! However, the files encoded at 368x480 still play squished. So, I'll still have to convert them. :(

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Poster: Old_Skool Date: Jul 23, 2004 6:14am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

All you need to do to author these "non-standard" resolutions with a program like TMPG DVD Author is patch the headers of the files with a program like DVD Patcher (search Google). It takes about 0.1 seconds to patch the header of any MPEG file to the DVD standard (720x480). No re-encoding of the files is necessary.

Patch the header of the MPEG to DVD standard.
Import it into TMPG DVD author.
Burn DVD and playback on TV.

The DVD player only cares that the files have a 4:3 aspect ratio, the resolution is irrelevent. I have old DVD players (1998) that play all these files without problems, as long as the aspect ratio is 4:3 which it is 99% of the time.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 23, 2004 4:11pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Using DVDPatcher to patch the header didn't work. It's still squeezed, and all the way to the left of the screen so the right half is blank, except now the blank area has a bunch of staticky-looking visual noise. Am I doing something wrong?

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Poster: FP Date: Jul 18, 2004 1:01pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Hey, they're free.

I just feed everything from Prelinger I want to put on DVD through VEGAS, uncheck "PRESERVE ASPECT RATIO", and output as 720X480 DVD-compliant MPEG2 files.

Sometimes a weird horizontal number of pixels causes some temporal artifacts during horizontal movement, but what the heck ya gonna do.

I'm sure the Archive people would be delighted to redigitize archival footage to your custom specs for a few thousamd dollars per title.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 19, 2004 3:14am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

"I'm sure the Archive people would be delighted to redigitize archival footage to your custom specs for a few thousamd dollars per title."

No need to get snippy. Just asking questions.

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Poster: FP Date: Jul 20, 2004 2:51am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

No snippiness intended, sorry. I just talk - and write - that way. It's all fun and games for me here in the archive forums.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffsimon c Date: Jul 18, 2004 4:29am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Unfortunately, you're right - a number of the earlier Prelinger movies, encoded when Skip wasn't around and we didn't have our current deriver, are at 368x480.

I always point people to The Diabolical Erroneous Monk's post on resolutions, which is excellent:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=13563

We're currently looking at making a FAQ for DVD (and VCD?) burning in a step-by-step way, and it's possible that we could try to add 'DVD ready' icons to the details pages of those movies which will burn without conversion - at least, time permitting :(

If anyone can help on how to convert these movies so they will burn easier on a DVD and keep the correct aspect ratio, please post in this thread.

Thanks,
Simon.

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Poster: doc Zox Date: Jul 20, 2004 1:37am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

It's kind of hard to offer a global format

One issue is that TVs have rectangular pixels
Computer screens have square pixels...

The original encoder might have been set to height / width instead of width / height

heres a good table of resolution "standards":
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/dataformats/imagedim/

640x480 NTSC full (Called PGA, IBM VGA)
720x480 NTSC DV
1280x720 HDTV
1366x768 WXGA (most plasma displays)
2048x1536 Feature film

a tool like Cleaner can reencode the files to the "proper" aspect ratio
http://www4.discreet.com/cleanerxl/
http://www.discreet.com/products/cleaner/cleaner6/


i just took a poke at the MP4 of "duck and cover" with Cleaner 5

it is 85.3 Kbits/s, 368x480, 23.5623 fps

reencoding it at the 480x360 aspect ratio as an MPG4 will take ~6-7 hours on my 500mhz mac

each frame is taking 2.3 seconds to open and reencode

its 9:15 or 555 seconds long
555 x 24 fps = 12960 frames to open & encode
13000 frames x 3 seconds each to encode = ~30000 seconds =500 minutes= ~8 hours

the majority of the process is opening each frame
reading takes 2.6 seconds
filtering takes 0.07 seconds
encoding takes 0.045 seconds...

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 20, 2004 1:38pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Many clips encoded in wrong resolution...

Thanks for the info...luckily my 1.5 Ghz encodes much faster, at about an hour for a 16 minute clip using the trial version of HT MPEG Encoder, but geez...$500 for the Cleaner program...HT MPEG Encoder can be had for $50, and it gets excellent reviews. Of course, the Cleaner probably has all kinds of bells and whistles that HT doesn't have as far as other video processing, if you need those.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 18, 2004 4:41am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Any chance of properly re-digitizing any of these films from the masters?

I know that would take a long time...but I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. :)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffsimon c Date: Jul 18, 2004 4:46am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Any chance of properly re-digitizing any of these films from the masters?

Sounds to me like some kind of script-based conversion to 352*480 would be our first port of call, but obviously, we don't want to ruin the aspect ratio - also, some say that 352*480 is somewhat non-standard as well?

[With the amount of new material we have to put online, I think we'd rather find a programmatic way to fix the existing movies than have to re-digitize from scratch, which is v.timeconsuming.]

Anyhow, feedback and suggestions are welcome. We're trying to make it much easier for people to burn DVDs of the material now that so many people are getting DVD burners.

Thanks,
Simon.
[Archive admin.]

This post was modified by simon c on 2004-07-18 11:46:04

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Poster: Steve Nordby Date: Jul 18, 2004 9:05am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: Any chance of properly re-digitizing any of these films from the masters?

DVD's are supposed to support previous VCD and SVCD resolutions 352x240, 352x480, and 480x480, as well as 704x480 (2xVCD) and 720x480. Converting other aspect ratios is slow and in my experience results in jerky motion of objects moving horizontally in the picture.

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 18, 2004 5:46am
Forum: prelinger Subject: 352x480?

I don't see why you'd want to convert them to 352x480; wouldn't the ratio would still be squeezed? 352 wide, 480 high. Why not just convert them to the DVD standard, or 720x480? By the way, a friend of mine more knowledgeable than I just informed me that, after converting to 720x480, the raw mpeg file will still play a bit vertically squished on the computer, but when authored to DVD and played on a DVD player, it will play normally.

For some reason, the person who encoded the files at 368x480 thought they would come out looking ok, according to the info at this site:

"The files were encoded at constant bitrates ranging from 2.75 Mbps to 3.5 Mbps. Most were encoded at 480 x 480 pixels (2/3 D1) or 368 x 480 (roughly 1/2 D1). The encoder drops horizontal pixels during the digitizing process, which during decoding are interpolated by the decoder to produce a 720 x 480 picture. (Rod Hewitt's site Coolstf shows examples of an image before and after this process.)"

I'm not sure which decoder is being talked about here, but these files are not remotely compatible with DVD.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffsimon c Date: Jul 18, 2004 6:23am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 352x480?

It's worth remembering that these files were being encoded in early 2001, when affordable DVD burners were but a theoretical idea. Nonetheless, I agree it's rather vexing.

I was suggesting conversion to 352x480 because it would mean a very similar filesize, and then, I hoped, would then play correctly in the DVD version - it sounds like movie players like Windows Media Player currently aren't getting the right stretching info, because of the non-standard width.

I _think_ that converting it to 352*480 and making sure that info was properly embedded in the MPEG would result in basically the correct aspect ratio. [I don't know if that's easy/possible.]

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/174200.php

..explains:

'Remember the WIDTH doesn't matter, since the width is 'hard coded' so to speak, when you encode the video. The width is always stretched to the full playback width according to the aspect ratio on the MPEG (MPEG Aspect Ratio (1.333*480 for svcd for example). Thats why a CVD (352x480) looks 'right', just like an SVCD (480x480) looks right. Both stretch back out to 640x480 with a 4:3 MPEG aspect ratio. View them with any software player that doesn't understand the 'Aspect Ratio Property', and you'll see very tall, very skinny people.'

So I suspect the current 368*480 MPEG 2s have busted aspect ratio info, at least in some players, hence the issue.

The only worry would be whether that 16 pixel loss would result in noticable squashing (it'd be horizontally squashed about 5 percent, right?)

See what I mean?
s!

PS - I am _not_ a coder or author of the derivers, just the forum admin trying to work out what's wrong.

This post was modified by simon c on 2004-07-18 13:23:32

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 18, 2004 9:18am
Forum: prelinger Subject: To clarify...

"It's worth remembering that these files were being encoded in early 2001, when affordable DVD burners were but a theoretical idea. Nonetheless, I agree it's rather vexing."

I understand; I'm just trying to figure out how to fix it now that the damage has been done. :)

"I was suggesting conversion to 352x480 because it would mean a very similar filesize, and then, I hoped, would then play correctly in the DVD version - it sounds like movie players like Windows Media Player currently aren't getting the right stretching info, because of the non-standard width.

I _think_ that converting it to 352*480 and making sure that info was properly embedded in the MPEG would result in basically the correct aspect ratio. [I don't know if that's easy/possible.]"

Again, why 352x480? Even if the ratio will be correct--if the trouble is going to be taken to convert in the first place, why not just do 720x480, the DVD standard? Unless you want to keep the smaller file size to conserve server space and speed up download times, in which case I would offer that, from what I've read, the emphasis here at the Archive seems to be on quality, and I would think that converting to the DVD standard would achieve the best results. Of course, I could be way off base here, and often am.

"http://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/174200.php

..explains:

'Remember the WIDTH doesn't matter, since the width is 'hard coded' so to speak, when you encode the video. The width is always stretched to the full playback width according to the aspect ratio on the MPEG (MPEG Aspect Ratio (1.333*480 for svcd for example). Thats why a CVD (352x480) looks 'right', just like an SVCD (480x480) looks right. Both stretch back out to 640x480 with a 4:3 MPEG aspect ratio. View them with any software player that doesn't understand the 'Aspect Ratio Property', and you'll see very tall, very skinny people.'"

Thanks for that info; understood.

"So I suspect the current 368*480 MPEG 2s have busted aspect ratio info, at least in some players, hence the issue."

The main issue with 368x480 is that it isn't compatible with DVD at >all<.

"The only worry would be whether that 16 pixel loss would result in noticable squashing (it'd be horizontally squashed about 5 percent, right?)

See what I mean?"

I see what you mean. I do know that, if encoded to the 720x480 DVD standard, although the raw mpeg file will be squished a bit during playback on Windows Media Player, DVD playback will be correct. I've now tested it. I can't vouch for 352x480. Anyone?

"PS - I am _not_ a coder or author of the derivers, just the forum admin trying to work out what's wrong."

Hey, I'm sure you know more about it than me! I assure you I meant no disrespect whatsoever; please let me know if I've stepped on any toes, and if I have, don't hesitate to rap my knuckles (or toes) a bit. :o I'm just trying to understand this craziness. Whoever decreed that there should be 12 zillion different video formats/resolutions/ratios/framerates should have their toenails removed with icepicks. :)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffsimon c Date: Jul 18, 2004 10:02am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: To clarify...

Cool,

I think we're talking about the same thing, so I shall take this info back to our 'flotilla of technical experts' and see what we can do with it.

Thanks again,
s!

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Poster: WaverBoy Date: Jul 19, 2004 1:21pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: To clarify...

Simon, just let me say a big hearty THANK YOU for getting back to my questions so promptly, and another equally hearty THANK YOU to all involved at the Archive in preserving and digitizing these films for present and future generations to enjoy and learn from. I may have come across as ungrateful in my first few posts, and I'd like to assert that I'm anything but.

Thanks again,

Jeff